from our past email (on prayer)

From: Jessica Quek (jessica_quek87@hotmail.com)
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:49:21 PM
RE: my 2cents worth for cg discussion on 16/11/07‏

hi cg, i thought i should say something, since well, i was part of the 'heated discussion' tt u all described.
i don't enjoy being in such discussions and sometimes, when dragged out, they can be a waste of everybody's time;
but i felt tt there was a need to this time because i felt that it was something that needed to be ironed out. sorry about it.
like kash said, thanks john and ian for sending such long emails; not very used to it, but they're much appreciated. see you all on fri.

blessings,jessica.

From: itadakimasu27@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: my 2cents worth for cg discussion on 16/11/07
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:10:49 +0000

HELLO guys, well i agree with mostly what is said. Ian and thanks for the case study.Especially poignant to me.My dad always asks me:You Chrisitians believe in your God right?But if you are sick,will God cure you?Will He send medicine or money from heaven?OR he says" Christians are not any better people--they are just as self-centered. When they pray they pray for themselves,they don't pray for God." (though praying FOR God is an ironic thought)

To these I haven't found the answers,I cower away and just keep praying for him in my own time.

In response to the debate at hand,I would say whether prayer changes things or not, was never an important question for me.I still pray because God is really like a friend,an intimate other to me and I cannot help but tell Him all my hopes and desires,ask Him about my life and future,about friends that I care for(intercession).I must say Im a dangerously Spirit-led person,lacking in knowledge or theology which i will try to brush up on in the near future.

My question to this debate is DESIRES.Because desires are the things which take faith to pray for.So what does it mean to be surrendered to the Lord?Does it mean that we do not pray for desires because we are surrendered and we trust in the plans that God have for us,to prosper us and not to harm us?How can we distinguish a desire that God puts on our heart?Are out hopes and dreams desires that God puts on our heart that He seriously intends for us to pursue? can/will He crush them along the way?When do we stop praying for something and start surrendering,at which point do we let it go or do we see it as a test of faith to pray even harder?

Sorry I have to do this but let's take "FACING THE GIANTS" for example,a mini case-study,hopefully everyone can relate to:

Coach had a bad time with his job.Wasnt one bad thing that came along the way,but many,logically directing him away from the job.How does he know it is not God signallinghim to change jobs,because when windows of opportunities are closed,it could be God directing you elsewhere.If took it in stride,had an accepting attitude to things under the guise of "surrendering to God's will"(the way things turn out, God is just not leading me there), then he very well would have quit the job prematurely.

But he took these things that were against him as a challenge of faith, bashing through the odds with God.He desired to coach the team to victory a lot:perhaps a God-given desire.

So is it true that if you have a strong desire at heart,a hope, a dream, it must be from God and you pursue it relentlessly as a faith journey?or is hope for miracles something that is strictly to be kept within movies?Or perhaps is there a time that comes where we weigh out the opportunity costs and surrender "God,I want this a lot but maybe it's not what You have in mind for me afterall."

My two cents worth is that: in prayer we must DARE TO.It is growing in courage in asking boldly from God,not like you are his boss,but like a son asking his father for candy,acknowledging Hissovereignity in it all,yet asking.It is true that there is a bigger picture that we cannot see,we wont know how God fits in all the pieces,because we are ultimately only a small piece ourselves. we've I'm sure we've discovered new things when we walk unexpected paths that weren't our original desires but God's will.

Then should we then back down,give it all up and float as fate or just make logical decisions according to tangible outcomes that God has allowed to happen?Life might be easier that way but I believe that praying against the odds and asking for what is not humanly possible,is quite the essence of faith.of course we are not talking about the "God let me strike toto tomorrow" kind of miracles here.

A sense of expectancy and believing it is possible,guides one's hand,though it is God who paves the way and gives us hope.Part of prayer is asking for peace to accept what we can't change,but that shouldn't stop us from asking from God boldly the next time round(as long as the request is Godly.)Ultimately I believe prayer really trains a man to look above himself and look to God for a miracle.Hey I know we're 20 and all,but isnt part of faith, still, about miracles?

It is also a growth journey of overcoming your faithlessness:But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.-James 1:6For if we ONLY ask for what is foreseable and humanly possible, what then are we saying about our trust in God?

A man shouldnt be stubborn but he should be of conviction and faith.(sounds good but the line is really quite thin and hard to draw)

Another way to look at prayer is not whether it changes things or not, but the value it brings to our spiritual lives and our relationship with God.

Sometimes I think CG discussion gets hindered by words.We all have our views I believe,but being spiritual matters,these are complex and hard to put into words.I have a lot of trouble finding the right words,I dont think Im a very good communicator at all.In this sense,writing helps better,gives time to better express.

Keep this alive guys.ian and john,lotsa valuable stuff in your writing! to the rest, God bless for your exams yall.dont worry,they're really quite a small part in life.:) ,just a really small but impt part.

:)kash

From: rejuvenate03@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: my 2cents worth for cg discussion on 16/11/07
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:56:47 +0000

heh i'm in the midst of doing some silly differentiation stuff and guess i prob wont do anything n forget abt this if i dont reply now..so short one just in response to the first part..

well of course when the grp's too big, not everyone gets to share and some dominate the discussion. but i'd say that oppportunities are given to everyone to speak or at least most of the time when i facilitate, i try to ask everyone at least once. then its up to whether the person wants to share coz of coz i do believe even though they may appear quiet, they have opinions to share which i feel is a good time n place to be encouraged!

with regards to intense discussion, well diff pple have diff views abt it..some love it. they think it helps us to stimulate our knowledge of God and in some way unite us more through 'rubbing shoulders' but having said that, some dont like it. they see the tension. feel uncomfortable abt it n see it as tension n unhealthy for CG. so there must be a balance i wld say.

and also CG time besides a time for discussion about issues, the bible which is what we're doing - great!, is also a time for us to care for one another. i wld say btw growing in the knowledge of God as a CG and caring for ppl, caring for someone who might be gg through some things affecting him or her overrides our time to discuss and learn from one another in terms of understanding the Word tog. that is why small grp time is impt.

i think praying more as a CG is impt. and we need to invest more time in that. i mean we got so much talking abt prayer and how it moves God's heart and all right, so all the more shldnt we be praying more esp as a CG. together we pray, we seek, we commit events, ppl unto God, together we see God's answers to our prayers, we see His glory and sovereignity and that He in turn blesses us coz we're stronger in unity in Him :)

some, including me saw that Fri when we spent considerably more time praying for one another as q a huge growth for our cg. just seeing how we show concern for one another, praying and committing one another to the Lord is really cool.

so yea got to balance and its good that we have ppl who hv diff perspectives so it keeps things more balanced, if u know what i mean...haha coz i dont really know what i'm talking abt now..back to differentiation and integration!

love, chia ying

From: the_invisible_mirage@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: my 2cents worth for cg discussion on 16/11/07
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:32:08 +0800

Good man.

i kinda felt that we glossed over this again, as we tend to do during cg. but here and now is a better time to discuss it, eh.

firstly, this appeal is not an original one, but let me echo the sentiments of others here, in an encouragement for us not to get too fixated on a topic, such that we take away the opportunity for others to speak as well. you know what i'm getting at here lah... if we're to grow, then we have to hear from everyone. it's not that the people who are quiet are un-opinionated on the subject, they're just waiting their turn.

but let's have good discussions as well. think carefully about what we have that adds to the discussion, and so to speak, pick your spots. sadly, cg discussion isn't buddy buddy time; our three hours has to be carefully protected so that everyone's in on the program. personally, i wish that we'd not be afraid of having intense discussions, and also that we'd take out a little time from announcements, prayer for events, etc. =P, to extend a discussion that is Spirit-led and that a few people would find crucial to their Christian approach. although i more than understand that sometimes we just have to move on and the post-discussion stuff is important too.

ok. i generally dislike using case examples to prove anything, it feels too much like GP, and GP is bullshit. but here's an interesting one. this is taken from the bestseller, 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, an atheist biologist. this is dangerous literature.

'An amusing, if rather pathetic, case study in miracles is the Great Prayer Experiment: does praying for patients help them recover? ... Francis Galton was the first to analyse scientifically ... he noted that ... in Britain ... entire congregations prayed ... for the health of the royal family. Shouldn't they, therefore, be unusually fit? ... Galton ... found no statistical difference. His intention may have been satirical, as also when he prayed over randomized plots of land to see if the plants would grow any faster (they didn't.)

More recently, the physicist Russell Stannard (one of Britain's three well-known religious scientists) ... an initiative ... to test experimentally the proposition that praying for sick patients improves their health.

... care was taken to tell them (the people praying) only the first name and initial letter of the surname (of patients being prayed for. but the patients didn't know if they were being prayed for or not.) Apparently that would be enough to enable God to pinpoint the right hospital bed.

... the idea of doing such experiments is open to a generous measure of ridicule, and the project duly received it...

... a Dr. Benson and his team monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals, all of whom received coronary bypass surgery... divided into three groups, Group 1 received prayers and didn't know it, Group 2 ... received no prayers and didn't know it... Group 3 received prayers and did know it.

... they (the praying people) were told to (pray) ... "for a successful surgery with quick, healthy recovery and no complications." The results, reported in the American Heart Journal of April 2006, were clear-cut. There was no difference between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not... There was a difference between those who knew they had been prayed for and those who did not know one way or the other; but it went in the wrong direction. Those who knew they had been the beneficiaries of prayer suffered significantly more complications that those who did not.

... it was no surprise that this study was opposed by theologians... the Oxford theologian Richard Swinburne ... objected to it on the grounds that God answers prayers only if they are offered up for good reasons.

... Needless to say, the negative results of the experiment will not shake the faithful. Bob Barth, the spiritual director of the Missouri prayer ministry which supplied some of the experimental prayers, said: "A person of faith would say that this study is interesting, but we've been praying for a long time and we've seem prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started." Yeah, right: we know from our faith that prayer works, so if evidence fails to show it we'll just soldier on until finally we get the result we want.'

okay. let's be sensible and ignore this case. that was just an interesting aside.

if everyone were to speak personally, we can all surely say that we believe prayer to God changes things, for the Bible truth that God responds to faith, and God listens to prayer. if not, i don't see how we can be Christian. but what changes? logic dictates that God knows all, time, non-time, concepts built for man that do not apply to God. logic dictates that God already knows He's going to do what, so He doesn't ever have to 'change His mind.' so because God knows everything that ever happens, nothing we say or do can change what is going to happen by His will (everything, actually.) expanding on that, no prayer we have can really persuade God to do anything else/ convince Him of the necessitude of having something happen, that He knows is already going to happen. Doesn't it mean that the personal choices we make as Christians are pointless as God already knows if we ultimately chose to go to heaven or to hell? of course not. but i wouldn't tell you why.

so maybe we pray for things that are less clear cut, so that we can claim subjective victories in things that happen. for example, we pray that the bus comes, we pray that people will be saved at a certain event, we pray that God will take care of us tomorrow. we pray that God will speak to us some way or other. we pray for things in the future, we remind ourselves that we cannot demand of God, that we cannot set a time for these things to happen, we cannot be disappointed when prayer fails now. these are simple steps to faith-building, faith-perpetuating, safe, prayers. lo and behold, prayer works.

on the other hand, we also say that prayer opens and aligns our hearts and our minds to the will of God, it brings us to God's heart, it uplifts us, it gives us peace, it gives us humility, it gives us wisdom. it encourages brothers and sisters in Christ to know they are being prayed for, it brings congregations together in fellowship under the wise ministrations of a pastor. prayer in a group allows us to share and sympathise with the perspectives of other believers. prayer keeps us on our toes, we acknowledge our sins before God when we pray, we pray for others before ourselves, we check our consciences before we pray for blessings. we give praise to God in prayer for things that work well, in ways that we can and cannot imagine. we look at people who pray, and they seem externally to be happier, more contented and more spiritually complete. finally, we know that God desires our worship and our relationship with Him, and He alone knows what pleases Him, and He alone knows why He wants us to pray to Him. so all this leads us to believe in prayer.

these are all well and good, but it takes a personal faith to believe in prayer. a personal faith that is self-convinced, and as such, undeniable. let me go on to say personally that i am a firm believer that prayer changes things. God responds to faithful prayer. imagine if tomorrow He said that he wanted to rain fire and brimstone on Singapore. would you not step up and say, 'Lord, if there are five good men in Singapore, would You not spare Singapore?' or would you stand by and think, 'it's up to you, Lord. You know best. You always decide what happens.' i have also had amazing things happen to me after a prayer, though not necessarily after qt. some things have happened that i thought i would be truly blessed to have happen to me, and i am thankful to God that they have happened, and i am also thankful that i can pray to Him for them. we are blessed if God 'visits' us emotionally when we seek Him, and we should not consider a lack of emotional confirmation or circumstantial evidence as the non-presence or uncaring side of God. but why not? because we fail to understand a lot of things. because God works in mysterious ways. non-answers, essentially, but by these too there can be answers.

we can be logical as much as we like. but there are answers in faith that defy logic. and logic cannot defy faith because logic fails us.

well haha that's that. respond respond respond! but of course study hard first.

ian

> From: johnnyworm007@hotmail.com>
Subject: my 2cents worth for cg discussion on 16/11/07>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:54:08 +0800> > >

hello everybody,> >

im very upset right now because i typed out the following mail and then pressed the 'refresh' button by accident so i lost everything. sigh. anyway, i realised that i didnt really say anything during discussion time during cell last friday, but there were some things that came to mind after spending time in bed with chris chia and also during sunday service that i thought id share:

> > About interceding, my reply (or at least the only one i could think of) is that we intercede because the Bible tells us to. It was one of the verses that we read out at the start of cell (Ephesians 6:18, which is apparently our memory verse for this week). It might sound like a cop-out to give an answer like this, but at the same time, it's also the most basic and fundamental answer one can give (i admit i didn't notice whether this got mentioned during discussion time coz i wasn't really paying attention; ironically, i was looking through my Bible for answers). We follow what the Bible says out of our love for God and so that we may express love to others, and as Chris Chia said to me (i'm paraphrasing), it's best to adopt a child-like faith when it comes to doing what the Bible says.> >

As for the matter of whether our prayers have an effect on events and their outcomes, i think that a large part of this depends on one's personal conviction regarding the matter. For me, i feel that prayer does have an effect on outcomes, in part because i desire them to. The problem with our discussion was that we focussed on a very linear progression of events, generally divided into two schools of thought which, very simplistically speaking, are: 1) that we pray because we believe it has an influence on events, and (2) that even though we believe events and their outcomes are set in stone, it is only human to desire that events turn out in a certain way, and so our prayers are an expression of this desire. The problem with thinking in either way is that both are based on the concept of time.> >

God has the luxury of being able to grasp the concepts of time and non-time, so to speak. I would have liked to give an example to illustrate this point, but it's kinda hard to. The closest i can get is the example of "Schrodinger's Cat", which even then isn't that good an illustration. I don't want to risk getting too confusing so i could attempt to explain this in person instead.> >

But what i'm really trying to say is that for us to conclusively decide the effects of prayer and whether they affect the outcomes of events is impossible because we are only human, and cannot understand what all of God's plans are. Whether our prayers affect outcomes or not shouldn't be our main concern (like the saying goes, "In faith we pray..." i donno what the rest of the saying is). There are definitely verses that suggest prayers do have an effect (e.g. James 5:16-18, Matthew 7:7), but to see the promises in these verses as your basis/motivation for praying shouldn't be the case. If prayers always had an effect, then people wouldn't keep saying that God's answer to prayers is either 'yes', 'no' or 'maybe'; the answer would always be 'yes' (once again, this is a very simplistic way of looking at things -- refer to James 4:3 as well as your own common sense).

hmm maybe it's not such a bad thing that i didnt manage to think of all this during discussion time. i'm not going to suggest what our motivation for praying should be or why we should even pray at all because different people have different styles of and reasons for praying, and im sure that a lot of us definitely pray with faith as our basis (with the hope that our prayers have an effect on events being a by-product of this faith). plus my brain's kinda tired, especially with having had to type all this out twice. anyway, you might want to refer to the following link:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/190/story_19034_1.html

as well as the other featured articles that are listed at the end of the interview for some perspectives on prayer, and also:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?pageID=1&discussionID=581923&messages_per_page=4

which is a forum that features a person who became greatly disillusioned with the concept of prayer. as far as his/her question on predestination and free will goes, it coincides with my thought earlier on that God enjoys the benefit of understanding time and non-time, and so i shall be intrusive and say that i think predestination and free will can co-exist

anyway, have a good week ahead. cheryl, i can now personally relate to your analogy of speaking to someone for 3hours, although it's not really something id like to repeat anytime soon

-john